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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Siragan and I were having a discussion of US vs. Japanese cars. He (being the anti-american he is) loves japanese cars. I don't. I (being the jerk I am) asked him how many stock Japanese-produced cars run in the 12's bone stock. Neither of us could think of a single one. The US has

LS1 Camaros (12.9's with good weather/driver)
LS1 Firebirds ( " " )
'03-'04 Cobras (12.8's " " )
Z06s (12.7's " ")
Viper (12.1's " " )

As of '00, as far as I know, the fastest Japanese-produced car was the Skyline, which ran a 13.2. Now, there is the EVO and STI, which run 13.4's and 13.1's respectively (and VERY consistant at that). All 3 of these cars are also trapping much slower speeds (due to twice the amount of traction for launching) and would most definately all be absolutely raped by all of the domestic cars listed above from anything other than a dead-stop launch.

Does anyone know of any faster Japanese cars that we are forgetting? I really hoped it would at least be a little closer when I started this agument with Siragan..

edit - I didn't post the times of MKIV TT Supras, TT 300Zs, or TT RX7's, because I know none of them are anywhere close to a 12, but if anyone has their exact quarter miles times (bone stock), feel free to post them. :)
 

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What about other imported cars? Mercedes Benz AMG E55, SL55s, BMW roadsters? Lamborghini Murcialagos?

You're right though, most japanese awd TT cars don't run anywhere near 12s, however the engineering put into those cars rivals that of the hand built VIPER...but leaves the mass produced Corvette and Mustang SVT Cobra in their dust.

LS1 Firebirds (aka Trans Am WS6) run the same times as Camaros... but the only Camaros that run anywhere near 12.9s are 00-02 SS models. the Z28s are high 13s as well as the regular TAs. Vipers run 12.4s...not 12.1s.

How about the new Lotus Elise? Car and Driver ran it to a 13.2 @ 104 mph. It has a Celica GTS motor and transmission too. That's Japanese on the inside.

The funny thing here is you're down playing the 13.2 by the Skyline, the 13.1 by the STi and the 13.4 by the EVO8... yet you're up playing the LS1 SS making a 12.9... which by the way is very VERY rare. Stick an STi or EVO next to an LS1 SS/WS6 and it will be nothing more than a drivers race all the way down the road.

That my friend negates your entire arguement.


but I do love your signature.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
James92Scort said:
What about other imported cars? Mercedes Benz AMG E55, SL55s, BMW roadsters? Lamborghini Murcialagos?

I didn't say imports. I said Japanese.

You're right though, most japanese awd TT cars don't run anywhere near 12s, however the engineering put into those cars rivals that of the hand built VIPER...but leaves the mass produced Corvette and Mustang SVT Cobra in their dust.

Engineering doesn't win races.

LS1 Firebirds (aka Trans Am WS6) run the same times as Camaros... but the only Camaros that run anywhere near 12.9s are 00-02 SS models. the Z28s are high 13s as well as the regular TAs. Vipers run 12.4s...not 12.1s.

I've seen 2 6-spd Trans Ams hit 12.9's.
No Camaro with an LS1 runs a high 13.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp ... e_number=1
Next..


How about the new Lotus Elise? Car and Driver ran it to a 13.2 @ 104 mph. It has a Celica GTS motor and transmission too. That's Japanese on the inside.

13.2 isn't a 12.

The funny thing here is you're down playing the 13.2 by the Skyline, the 13.1 by the STi and the 13.4 by the EVO8... yet you're up playing the LS1 SS making a 12.9... which by the way is very VERY rare. Stick an STi or EVO next to an LS1 SS/WS6 and it will be nothing more than a drivers race all the way down the road.

I'm not downplaying or upplaying anything. Facts are I cannot think of a single japanese-produced car that runs a 12 in bone stock trim, and I just named 5 domestic cars off the top of my head that do. One of them almost into the 11's. The only reason that a 12.9 in an LS1 Fbody is rare is because it actually takes skill to launch a RWD car, and you just rev and dump the clutch in AWD cars. That's why they're very consistant.

That my friend negates your entire arguement.
You have said nothing to negate my argument. You haven't found a japanese-produced automobile that runs a 12.9 or better in bone stock trim.

.. and I'm suprised you didn't bring up the NSX which has recently dropped to a 13.2. ::applause::

edit - and the 12.1 in the Viper is with Car and Driver editors driving. I've seen 1 hit an 11.8, but I have no way to prove it was stock. :(

edit 2 - and Lotus doesn't count. SHO's and EGT's are not Japanese, so they aren't either. Hah.
 

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imports hmmmm... I am pretty sure there is a Porsche or two that is in the 12's, Ferrari are the same way. But the bang for the buck is nothing compared to some of the other cars listed above. ohoh I forgot what about the Conquest Tsi/Mistu Starion, or even the Buick GNX...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
hotrodjim72 said:
imports hmmmm... I am pretty sure there is a Porsche or two that is in the 12's, Ferrari are the same way. But the bang for the buck is nothing compared to some of the other cars listed above. ohoh I forgot what about the Conquest Tsi/Mistu Starion, or even the Buick GNX...
I was unaware that Porsche's and Ferrari's were Japanese. Conquests/Starions are just plain slow, and GNX's are mid-13's.
 

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TitoElSpicco said:
James92Scort said:
What about other imported cars? Mercedes Benz AMG E55, SL55s, BMW roadsters? Lamborghini Murcialagos?

I didn't say imports. I said Japanese.

You're right though, most japanese awd TT cars don't run anywhere near 12s, however the engineering put into those cars rivals that of the hand built VIPER...but leaves the mass produced Corvette and Mustang SVT Cobra in their dust.

Engineering doesn't win races.

LS1 Firebirds (aka Trans Am WS6) run the same times as Camaros... but the only Camaros that run anywhere near 12.9s are 00-02 SS models. the Z28s are high 13s as well as the regular TAs. Vipers run 12.4s...not 12.1s.

I've seen 2 6-spd Trans Ams hit 12.9's.
No Camaro with an LS1 runs a high 13.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp ... e_number=1
Next..


How about the new Lotus Elise? Car and Driver ran it to a 13.2 @ 104 mph. It has a Celica GTS motor and transmission too. That's Japanese on the inside.

13.2 isn't a 12.

The funny thing here is you're down playing the 13.2 by the Skyline, the 13.1 by the STi and the 13.4 by the EVO8... yet you're up playing the LS1 SS making a 12.9... which by the way is very VERY rare. Stick an STi or EVO next to an LS1 SS/WS6 and it will be nothing more than a drivers race all the way down the road.

I'm not downplaying or upplaying anything. Facts are I cannot think of a single japanese-produced car that runs a 12 in bone stock trim, and I just named 5 domestic cars off the top of my head that do. One of them almost into the 11's. The only reason that a 12.9 in an LS1 Fbody is rare is because it actually takes skill to launch a RWD car, and you just rev and dump the clutch in AWD cars. That's why they're very consistant.

That my friend negates your entire arguement.
You have said nothing to negate my argument. You haven't found a japanese-produced automobile that runs a 12.9 or better in bone stock trim.

.. and I'm suprised you didn't bring up the NSX which has recently dropped to a 13.2. ::applause::

edit - and the 12.1 in the Viper is with Car and Driver editors driving. I've seen 1 hit an 11.8, but I have no way to prove it was stock. :(

edit 2 - and Lotus doesn't count. SHO's and EGT's are not Japanese, so they aren't either. Hah.
Engineering does win races, becuase when the poorly engineered car breaks...the Japanese cars keep going.

2 modified 6 sp trans ams hit 12.9...
Camaro Z28s run 13.6s stock at best, granted some are factory freaks and to top this off, the SS only has 15 more advertised hp. Chevy and Ford can get away with underrating the power output to the EPA. Dunno why.

You named 5 cars that can run 12s, doesn't mean any schmuck is going to be consistent on every run. I've seen an STi rip apart a Z06 because the young buck with the money can't drive worth shit.

Why do Jap cars have to run 12s in stock form to be impressive? I'll take an STi over a Viper any day. Hell an STi is 32k a Viper is 80k. For that 48k I'm saving, an STi will be built to rip apart a Viper anyday of the week, road course and drag racing. A Lotus should count, it's powered by a japanese motor and it runs 13.2s. Now you're just being technical... and since you are, technically an Escort IS Japanese since it's the Protege Body... Protege body design belongs to, you guessed it, Mazda. You know where Mazda comes from. Right?

Your arguement is that because Japanese cars don't run 12s they're complete and utter crap? Well, for the price of your Z06 and Viper, give me any japanese car and I'll smoke them both. Arguement negated.

PS the NSX sucks ass. I hate it. overrated over priced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
James92Scort said:
Engineering does win races, becuase when the poorly engineered car breaks...the Japanese cars keep going.

Domestic cars are just as reliable as Japanese cars. Get over yourself.

2 modified 6 sp trans ams hit 12.9...
Camaro Z28s run 13.6s stock at best, granted some are factory freaks and to top this off, the SS only has 15 more advertised hp. Chevy and Ford can get away with underrating the power output to the EPA. Dunno why.

I have 2 friends, both named Joe. If you'd like, I can give you their screen-names for AIM. One has an LT1 Z28 than ran a 13.7 (yes, LT1), and the other has an '02 Trans AM, stock down to the paper air filter, 6spd, who ran a 12.9 3 weekends ago at VMP in Dinwiddie, VA.

You named 5 cars that can run 12s, doesn't mean any schmuck is going to be consistent on every run. I've seen an STi rip apart a Z06 because the young buck with the money can't drive worth ****.

Like I said before, it takes a tad bit more skill piloting these cars to 12's since you don't just floor it and hold on like your precious AWD rockets.

Why do Jap cars have to run 12s in stock form to be impressive? I'll take an STi over a Viper any day. Hell an STi is 32k a Viper is 80k. For that 48k I'm saving, an STi will be built to rip apart a Viper anyday of the week, road course and drag racing. A Lotus should count, it's powered by a japanese motor and it runs 13.2s. Now you're just being technical... and since you are, technically an Escort IS Japanese since it's the Protege Body... Protege body design belongs to, you guessed it, Mazda. You know where Mazda comes from. Right?

.. show me where I said any of those cars are junk, unimpressive, or I would never own one, and I'll start listening to you again. Jumping to conclusions makes you look like a dick. And yes, I'd love to see a Lotus hit a 12. I farking LOVE those cars.

Your arguement is that because Japanese cars don't run 12s they're complete and utter crap? Well, for the price of your Z06 and Viper, give me any japanese car and I'll smoke them both. Arguement negated.

That entire paragraph made you look like an idiot. Congrats.

PS the NSX sucks ass. I hate it. overrated over priced.
This is in no way a "Japanese cars suck and American cars ruuule!!!" argument, I'm just saying US cars are just plain faster in a straight line.

Ok. Let's start over.

Five domestic cars run 12's bone stock. Can you name a single entirely Japanese-produced car that runs a 12 bone stock?
 

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btw stop doing that... i'm not reading in my quote for that shit.

What are you saying? you're saying that its unimpressive that nothing runs 12s liek american V8s? who cares really? The price you pay to drive a V8 is rediculous to me. You talk to both of your friends about the Fbody's...they've had absolutely no problems with them ever huh? I highly doubt that. I always hear of people having problems with their Fbody's, and stangs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
James92Scort said:
What are you saying? you're saying that its unimpressive that nothing runs 12s liek american V8s? who cares really? The price you pay to drive a V8 is rediculous to me. You talk to both of your friends about the Fbody's...they've had absolutely no problems with them ever huh? I highly doubt that. I always hear of people having problems with their Fbody's, and stangs.
.. the fark did I say about unimpressive? The fark did I say about Japanese cars being trash?

Nothing.

People have just as many problems with imported cars as domestic cars. I have just as many friends with modified broken-down imports as I do friends with modified broken-down domestic cars.
 

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Well I understand where Tito is coming from, he's not really trying to say that hte Domestics are all-around better (cause we know that imports own american as far as road course and durability goes) he's merely saying that taking your car straight from the factory to the 1/4 mile that American is just plain faster... I remember reading another thread somewhere on the same topic, and it ended when one guy searched up and found the two fastest motors from America and Japan. The american one was a Hemi and the Japanese Engine was a Toyota Supra I6. Even fully modified (which is how he found them) the Japanese engine didn't hold a candle to the Hemi, and the end results are alwas going to be based off of the beginning product. American engines just haul out of the factory more than Japanese ones do, but then again, No Japanese company even makes V-8's I would fear a V-8 from Japan, I mean look, the've got inline 6's that run fast as hell.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Toyota makes a V8.. but can't seem to make torque. Nissan makes an AWESOME V8 (Titan and the new SUV, whatever it's called.)

and japanese engines are not any more reliable (and generally LESS durable) than domestic engines.

edit - I remember reading something about Toyota wanting to put their 4.3 V8 (out of Lexus LS430's) into their IS series of cars (you know, the IS300/Altezza). That would be an awesome, awesome car if they could keep the weight distribution decent. Still wouldn't run a 12, though.. :)
 

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I like Jap vehicles better than American cars. They have always
been alot more reliable than domestics. The Nissan Titan V-8 has
300 HP and the Armada is a big SUV and gets 0 to 60 around 7 seconds.

The domestics have some nice cars, but usually the jap cars have
less problems than domestics do.

:)
 

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You're right Tito, I had forgotten the new Nissans had V-8's but I had never heard of the V-8 Altezzas. But you do have to say that if the Japanese were as big into putting V-8's into their cars as the American Companies are that the gap might not be so different. Cause you did compare all V-8's (except the much larger Viper) to cars that for the most part are I-4 maybe I-6 at best.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
What's irrelevant?

I wasn't necessarily looking for an argument, James just took it personally that there is not a single Japanese-produced vehicle that runs 12's in stock trim.

Misfit_Zero said:
You're right Tito, I had forgotten the new Nissans had V-8's but I had never heard of the V-8 Altezzas. But you do have to say that if the Japanese were as big into putting V-8's into their cars as the American Companies are that the gap might not be so different. Cause you did compare all V-8's (except the much larger Viper) to cars that for the most part are I-4 maybe I-6 at best.
Toyota also has a V8 in their Tundra. I'm not sure if it's the same 4.3, but it's similar to the one they're putting in their Tundra Nascar trucks.

The Viper has a V-10.

The '03 Cobra shows what can be done if you include forced induction in the mix. All of Japans high-power engines are turbocharged, god forbid the US ever catches on with a force-induced LS1. :)
 

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The irrelevance is as follows...we all (well most of us here) drive dumpy little American Escorts (yes, I'll call them American cars) that can't do a quarter mile in much under 20 seconds. I'd time a quater mile in my 91 LX, but I'm afraid my existing compression ratio (oh, I'd guess about 1) wouldn't be enough to beat most stock Festivas. However, that's not why I or most Escort owners have their Escorts. After wrapping my Civic Si around a guardrail 8 years ago, I bought my Escort with the intention of owning it for two weeks (had to get to an airport). I still own the little beast, 'cos it tows my boat and simply won't die. It may be the ugliest car you've ever seen, but it does what I ask it to.

The whole point is that you incited a near riot and it was great.
 

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Tito, I didn't know you were thinking about trucks. I was thinking purely Japanese Cars. and I still think comparing the Viper to a car market where most engines have less than half the cylinders of a Viper is a bit unfair. I know that American cars are faster in straight lines, but as Siragan used to say (I think it was him) "Different Strokes for Different folks..." In Japan there are a lot more mountains with REALLY winding roads so the don't have as much wide open area to just go balls out on the throttle, their cars reflect this by having engines that don't put out eight times as much horsepower and torque than is required.

I would love to see someone go over there in a Mustang or Vette and take on one of their smaller lightweight cars in the turns of Irohazaka.

But then again your point was that American cars are faster in straight lines from the factory. This is true, and I know that oyu weren't trying ot start a riot or argument I think highanddry is being a bit melodramatic about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
highanddry said:
The whole point is that you incited a near riot and it was great.
hahahaha - wasn't it?

Misfit_Zero said:
Tito, I didn't know you were thinking about trucks. I was thinking purely Japanese Cars. and I still think comparing the Viper to a car market where most engines have less than half the cylinders of a Viper is a bit unfair. I know that American cars are faster in straight lines, but as Siragan used to say (I think it was him) "Different Strokes for Different folks..." In Japan there are a lot more mountains with REALLY winding roads so the don't have as much wide open area to just go balls out on the throttle, their cars reflect this by having engines that don't put out eight times as much horsepower and torque than is required.

I would love to see someone go over there in a Mustang or Vette and take on one of their smaller lightweight cars in the turns of Irohazaka.

But then again your point was that American cars are faster in straight lines from the factory. This is true, and I know that oyu weren't trying ot start a riot or argument I think highanddry is being a bit melodramatic about it.
haha - I wasn't talking trucks, but the topic got brought up anyway I guess. The Infiniti Q45 and M45 and the Lexus LS430 are all japanese cars with naturally aspirated V8's. There might be more, that's just off the top of my head (as most of everything I posted in this thread has been).

Vipers have less than half the cylinders, but there japanese counterparts also have turbos. It's a perfectly fair comparison unless the domestics are allowed to use a forced induction. :) (Which the Cobra does, and it does b-e-a-utifully).

.. and a Z06 Corvette would hang with close to anything Japan has to offer as far as a road course is concerned.... but that's about it. Camaros/Mustangs/Firebirds would all be left in the dust.

.. and no, the point of the thread was to make sure I wasn't missing any cars that ran a 12 in stock form that are produced in Japan, and I still haven't found one (for less than $100k, but those aren't really car's anyway, they're a different breed entirely).
 
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