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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would like anyone who was apposed to us going to Iraq to go to foxnews.com and watch the torture video. I then want to hear one single reason we shouldn't have gone into Iraq.


Watched the news on PBS the other day and watched daschle (sp?) saying how we are making no porgress and there are to many soldiers dieing. I agree with the fact that we are losing to many people but it was good to see the rest of the report interviewing the Iraqi people. They don't want us there obviously. But they were so glad to be able to voice that oppinion and it was clear once stability is fully returned they will be more than thanksfull...

anywho this is mats political rant for the day
 

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I'm against this war because the US are trying to look good in front of the nations saying that they want to free those poor iraqui people ( and in the first place...US gave a big bunch of cash to saddam to allow him to buy tons of guns to kill some dudes in Koweit ), but in fact they are only acting for economical reasons... they want the territory and the gas that is under it... why do you think they wanted to go in Afghanistan? to get ben ladden...nahhh they wanted to take control of the territory to get some pipeline through the country....but the Talibans were against it....i dont like talibans either....but your government is everything but well intended...except for their own well being...and also...since the Chinese's economical rising is like 2-3 times more then the us..if not more ....they want to take control of the petroleum production cauz they know Chineese do not have enough material to feed their increasing needs...

I wish you guys would speak in french so i could really get into the subject ahah..but neways...
 

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I don't really care why the US and British Governments were so hell-bent on going to Iraq or Afganistan - I'm just glad they did and that they got rid of both Saddam Hussein and the Taliban. At least the people in those countries have a chance of a better life in the long run. That is if they stand on their own "two feet," and at least make an effort to mend their internal rifts.

The 'wars' have been costly both financially and politically for both Governments and I believe the United Nations have let both our countries down very badly. No leader of any nation should be allowed to subjugate his own people in the way Saddam Hussein has done, for his own profit. The United Nations should have the power and the will to prevent such abuse - but it seems they have neither and until they do, it is up to other willing parties to do their work for them.

However, I do realize I am probably in the minority on this particular subject.

Rant over

Penny
 

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The thing is that Saddam'S actions were financed by the governement of US in order to help his army against another...So is what the US is doing in Israel against the Palestinian people...anyways....have you ever watch Bowling for Columbine from Micheal moores...you'll understand much more things if you haven't yet...its a documentary on the actions of the US Gov.

Anyways, i don't think that killing other people because they represent a danger for you is a good way to think... Cauz...if you look at it on an other angle...we are the predator and everybody else want us to die but they can't kill us...so it's all about being the stronger...which in my opinion...will lead to a constant fight for control...and not an intellligent road to evolution
IMO
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
don't forget Bush ordered Sept. 11th too. LMAO

I don't care if it was for a pipleline the fact is a lot of bad people are no longer in this world. The US and UK have led a great fight to make the world a better place. We have a much more realistic picture of what the world is like. Is it better? No but its what we should have seen before.

I honestly think we are at one of those great historical points in the world. Are we going to stand by and let another Hitler come to power or are we willing to sacrifice to keep it from happening. I look at the news and see them interviewing a soldier that is about to have both is arms amputated. If ANYONE has the right to be critical of the US policy it would be him and the other innocent people. However PBS the US public station (IE not owned by any one company) which is know for being liberal as you can get was interviewing people right and left who love us over there. Not exactly in keeping with the liberal view in the US.

Anyways the point of the post is... how can you watch a video of people having their head choped off, being pushed off the top of buildings etc and not be glad he is no longer in power!? To me that isn't human.
 

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I am against the war, not because I don't think Saddam needed dealing with, or that what he was doing was wrong, but because our government LIED to us to get us in there. They said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which at the time I doubted, and they have still found no evidence of an active chemical/nuclear/biological warfare program.

Had they said 'we're going in there because what Saddam is doing is wrong' I might have had a different tune. Saddam Hussein and Iraq did NOT pose a clear and present danger, or, I think, any threat at all to the U.S. There is little or no evidence that Iraq was involved with Al Queda, either, the CIA said it themselves.

I think that rather than stabilizing the region, we have destabilized it, and now we cannot turn back. There are too many groups in Iraq with differing opinions that are willing to fight each other over them. If I remember my history correctly, Iraq was created after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and not a country made of its own free will, like England or the U.S. Just a bunch of people forced together. You have the Kurds (sp?) the Suni muslims and the Shiites, all of which hate each other. It'd probably be better to split Iraq into three countries, draw some lines, and say, 'This is yours, this is yours, and that's yours,' to all parties involved... So I am not for pulling out right this minute, that'd be disastrous, and create more *cringe* terrorists (hate to use that word, the media blurts it out so much) than there were before we went in there.
 

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Well..im sorry but for me...Bush is the New Hitler...claiming that is nation and is country is thE BEST IN THE WORLD...but i'd just like to say that the US is the country that is polluting the most....and there is 10 000 death caused by guns in the us while there is only 160 in canada and like 300 in the UK ...it kinda frighten's me..
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Bush is the new Hitler? do you even know what hitler did!?

You know everyone always says the US polutes the most but I haven't seen any data on this. I mean I have a recycling bin as large as my trash bin outside my house. You don't see that kind of stuff coming out in the papers do you.

Bush declaring we are the best? I don't know that I've seen that quote but I won't deny it. Your telling me you don't consider Canada better than the US? It's called being proud of what you have.

My personal thoughts are everyone hates us because we do what we want. We have a constitution that protects our basic rights. We vote in all of our elected officials and if we want we get rid of them (Example: California, Arizona has done it too). Everyone knows my thoughts on the whole Gun issue I'm sure. It is an education problem combined with the lack of basic human respect that is creeping up in every part of the world these days. I very much doubt it would be all that much harder to get a gun in almost any other country if I wanted to use it for something bad. When you get down to it wether you like the US or not it is the country WE chose because we love that freedom. This country was founded on pissing off everyone else because we were sick of doing it there way. It is the pride in our country that makes us the last superpower. Fear and drive people to do amazing things for a little while. In the end Freedom and pride in what you are doing will win out every time.

why does Canada have such a problem with the US? None in the US have any problem with Canadians... well other then the "eh jokes". Well that and making fun of the French kinda gets you some jokes as well but that is 90% the current political climate. Soon as the polititians on both side change that view probably will as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Just thought of this... as a side note. Afganistan (probably spelled wrong) just released a draft of their constitution. It will take a while to get all decided on and have the final version. Makes you kinda wonder what kind of shape Iraq will be in a year or two huh?
 

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I don't know, I think it's too early to really say one way or the other how Iraq is going to turn out. Afghanistan didn't have nearly the amount of resistance that Iraq is having right now. Also, next year is an election year, and if the tables happen to turn in Washington then we might pull out prematurely, depending on the political climate. People are getting antsy because of all the guerilla fighting going on over there. I sincerely hope that we don't pull out before the job is done, even though as I said before I'm not for the war. We passed the point of no return a long time ago though.

As for Canada hating the U.S, I don't really know if they do or not, but I do know that quite a few countries around the world are angry with us, because we do what we want, just like you said. However there's a problem with that: As far as in our own country that attitude is okay. When you get international though, it's different. How often do we allow other countries to simply 'do what they want?' The short answer is, we don't really. That is the reason why many people hate the U.S. If everybody did what they wanted, every country that wanted another country's resources and had the power to take it would.

As for the torture thing, I can't say I'm geniunely happy that Saddam Hussein is out of power. How much did it really affect me, or anybody else in the U.S. really? I don't know. I saw all the videos of all the bodies and everything just like everyone else, but it didn't mean much to me, I dunno why. If that makes me inhuman, so be it. Maybe I'm desensitized to it, I dunno, maybe it's the way that about every other year in high school and middle school in one of my classes we did a unit on the Nazis, and I've seen worse, so it didn't seem so bad. Maybe it's the fact that the media glossed over it when compared to all the fighting, and showing off their star reporters and whatnot, so it just didn't have that much of an impact. Thousands of people IS bad, but it happens all around the world... The whole thing seemed like a giant circus, and I just can't say it made a huge difference to me.

P.S. Then again, I'm only 19, what do I know?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
True it is way to soon to know where Iraq will end up. However they have the higher literecy rate in the world. To think Afghanistan one of the worls poorest countries can make the acheivments they have then Iraq sure as heck should.

On the US doing whatever they want... that is a tough one. I mean our goverment is elected to do good for our country first and in my oppinion everyone else second. Now is that fair? not really but life isn't. Now I don't ever want anything in our country to severly hurt people in other countries. things like trade will effect that up and down but there are so many factors in that any kind of trade deal always seems to screw someone. I guess I don't have a solution to this one except to say it is a really tough subject. I don't think we should worry about everyone thinks of us and should worry about doing what is "right".

As for the torture. I agree it is in no way Hitler levels of murder but I think its a lot higher than a few thousand. But then you get into the question of where that line should be. Is 5000 torture killings ok but 20000 not?
 

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The pros and cons of going/not going to war are always hopelessly argued.
The fact is that insight IS ALWAYS 100%.
There will always be trigger happy countries/states/provinces/whatever and there will always be the passive/coudln't be bothered/ i'm a pacifist/can do no wrong, kind of people.
Should the US have just sat back? or not ?
Only future generations will be able to judge.
History has a way of equalizing all arguments.

Personally, as a Canadian, I think WE should have at least participated, if only as support/backup personel. I'm also tired of being called a war monger.

The bottom line is : you can't get 4 people in the same room for any lenght of time without starting a disagreement somewhere. How can one expect to have over 200 countries living in peace?

Is it possible? : yes .
Will it ever happen? : not in a million years.

All this just provides burning fuel for medias to sell their products.

Let's hope that we could, at least, live without having to shoot at one another.

But here again this is only a wish ...
 

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Hmm. You got a point there egtdude. I don't think any amount of killing is okay, but I think you have to weigh that with the cost in lives of the war. Sure, WE haven't had all that many casualties, but what about those forced to fight in the Iraqi army? We haven't seen any counts on how many of them we killed going over there. (I think it's safe to say less than Saddam executed, though.) So maybe it was after all worth doing it, if not for the reasons that Bush gave us. Only time will tell, I guess.
 

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Well..the thing is not that I hate USA...The thing is that the government that is now in control of the country is not a good one IMO... Why? well their role as being one of the most powerfull country in the world is to protect the weaker...not to make profit out of their weakness...Ok, i know that in the history of the man kind, it never turned out like that...but now....will all our rules and reglementation...we should be aware of the others...and not try to get their faces deeper in dirt...

and for the pollution...USA CATEGORALICALY refused to take part in one of the most important anti-pollution meeting ( Kioto or something like that). Most of the industrialized country have already adopted thoses laws who forces company to lower their toxic emission...but not the USA... and also...since you're main source of power is generated by Nuclear and Thermic power plants...you're polluting ALOT compared to many other countries...and because of the south to north winds..we get to deal with all your crap !! :p I know that every single american is not responsable for those things...but I feel like all your medias are more preoccupated by telediffusing storys of super white cops chasing black criminals instead of talking about the real subjects that really matters...if you want to understand a little bit more what i'm trying to say...watch this film : Bowling for Columbine...and you'll probably start to understand what i meant to say....

Neways.... i know this aint gonna change a thing...and well...The US may have not killed as much people as hitler...but i'm sure people in Japan who are still old enough to remember world war II will feel what im trying to say...
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
First I forgot to comment on the whole media thing. I agree the media glosses everything these days. The problem is in out tech savy world we want to know what is happening right now. The truth is we will have to wait to see what really happened in Iraq. Politicians all over the world will slant it any way they can to keep their jobs/power. I am glad Foxnews has come along. I think they are more balanced then CNN. Are they totaly oppinon free..no thats part of being human. I read a lot of international news as well.

moman1: great point IMHO. I'm really dissapointed in Pope especially. He took the time to critisize the US but he never spoke out against Saddam. I think if the world could have united a little better this could have had a different outcome. However...saddam probably would still be in power. So maybe it will be good in the long run. again only history will tell.


coyote-x: Your right you have to take into consideration all those things. Trust me I'm under no illusions. a LOT more Iraqies died then US troops. My only problem is once you go down that road who decides where to draw that line....

Electronikal: Well we probably will never agree on most political topics but discussing it is a great way to understand better what the other group is thinking. So on the whole current US government. I know Bush and his people are not perfect. BUT I do think he is better than the last one by far. He came into office just in time for a really hard time for America and in my oppinion has done an excelent job of it. The ecenomy is coming around. We have the highest GDP since the 80's. Airline travel is back up to pre 9/11 rates. In a year or two things will be better then ever in the US. I'm assuming he's getting re-elected unless somthing major changes. The Dems can't seem to figure out what the people want to save their lives.
On the Kioto thing I can't remember the reasoning behind it but I remember agreeing with it at the time. So I'll have to pass on that one until I know more. I do have one thing to say is because of our fmaily business we work with a lot of international tourists. My dad loves talking to them and getting to know them. Anywho on more than one occation they have been amazed to find all the recylcing etc the the US does. All they hear is how horrible we are and then they come and find out we are a lot better then anyone gives us credit for. Like in any argument no one side is right. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I'm not sure what you ment by the "super white cops chasing black criminals".

As for Bowling for Columbine I'll probably never watch it. If only for what the guy stands for. I'm getting a little cranky in my old age (24!?!?!) I don't give people my money/time if I don't agree with what they stand for.

It's interesting you brought up Japan. I had a feeling that would come up. I was watching a show on PBS (our public station) nad it had a National Geographic special on "D - Day" (not only normandy) and they were talking about how the bombs that were dropped that night were not the deadliest night. It was several months before with some fire bombing. So its kind of interesting how no one brings that up. Now I'll say right now I don't agree with bombing cities. This is one of those things history is judging. It was done at the time. Everyone did it to everyone else. I'm glad it isn't done anymore. However that one night did stop the war. I feel fairly safe in saying a lot more people would have died on both sides had it continued. These numbers are not totaly correct because we are not taking into account cancer etc. But the said the fire bombing caused more deaths with around 100,000 (scary stuff but again it happened to almost everyone). Now I can't remember the name of the first island the US landed on. The Japanese people were told the US troops were canibals, rapists etc so they were not going to be taken alive. I know I've seen shows about the US troops having a hard time dealing with how many people jumped to their deaths etc. Anyway my point is of 21,000 people on the island only 100 were abled to be captured. That is only one island and that doesn't take into account the US losses. I think that 100,000 person mark could have been crossed very easily by the time we got the mainland. Nukes are one of those things you wish could be uninvented. But then you also have to ask how many wars were never started because there is that all powerfull "god weapon" that nothing can beat. I'm not saying its good just that it warrents thinking about.

I watched a very powerfull speach by Bush yesterday. If I can find the transcript I'll post the lin. The gest of it was there are now roughly 1/3 more democricies in the world then there were 20 years ago.... and soon to count two more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
oh yeah.. one more thing *L* I'd like to see a study on power production on how much of what is used in different countries. I know in the west we have a ton of hydroelectric facilities. along with a huge nuke plant outside phoenix. So anyway I'd love to see the facts on that topic.

also I found that speech. I didn't catch all of it yesterday but here it is:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 106-2.html
 

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Hmm. Don't have much to add to my previous post but I find myself more in agreement with Matt's point of view than others, although of course I can understand their opinions (other than references to Hitler). As to the US's stance on pollution issues, I too am in no position to comment other than that I am watching with much interest the hullabaloo going on at present with regard to the decommissioned ships sailing towards the UK for dismantling. All hell appears to have broken loose here - will be interesting to see the outcome. :?
 
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