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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Caymen said:
Just because a GTR turbo will support 450 HP does not mean at 20 lbs of boost, I will get 450 HP. Jesse's EGT was dead on my calculations when he and my buddy in a Nitrous ZX2 with a 75 HP shot of nitrous raced. The ZX2 has 130 HP and you add the 75 HP shot, you get 205 HP.
oh i'll try to make this short and to the point.. if a turbo's sweet spot on it's comp. map is around 450, with the right tuning, the right amount of fuel, a volumetrically efficient head, and the right accesories, there is absolutely no reason that number cannot be achieved.

next, nitrous is measured on a chevy 350. that's 5.7 liters. your zx2 is ROUGHLY one third of that, at 2 liters. now, with a 75 shot, that ROUGHLY translates to a 25 shot on a 2 liter motor - then you account for drivetrain loss. when it's all said and done, i doubt a zx2 with a 75 shot would even put an extra 20hp to the ground.

but i'm real dumb. you've been into escorts for years. you win.
 

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Q. How much of a horsepower increase can I expect from a nitrous system?
A. All NX systems make within 2% of their claimed horsepower, if you jet the system for 50 horsepower then you can expect no less than 49 horsepower, but usually a few more than the rated amount.

Source: http://www.nitrousexpress.com

I bet they are lying.

Prove to me that a 75 HP shot will only give 25 HP. Prove it!

Just because I have been around does not mean I know it all. I was just trying to prove that I am not some dummy that hasn't seen Escorts that have performance parts installed.

Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Caymen said:
Q. How much of a horsepower increase can I expect from a nitrous system?
A. All NX systems make within 2% of their claimed horsepower, if you jet the system for 50 horsepower then you can expect no less than 49 horsepower, but usually a few more than the rated amount.

Source: http://www.nitrousexpress.com

I bet they are lying.

Prove to me that a 75 HP shot will only give 25 HP. Prove it!
.. are you seriously trying to say that a 75 shot on a chevy 454 and a 75 shot on a geo metro will both produce 75hp?

E-mail them and ask them. If they're not refering to a 50shot making 50hp on a chevy 350, i'll send you $5 through paypal.

A friends probe, 4 cyl. W/O nitrous - 16.9 - with a 85shot - 16.5

are they lying? no, that's illegal.
are they withholding certain info to help their product sell better? i'm sure, i know i would.
 

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The kid my buddy got was a universal 50-75 HP shot for a 4cylinder/V6.

If 75 HP is figured on a 350 and a 2.0 is roughly 1/3 of that and it will push 25 HP, then a 454 is 7.4l. That is almost 4 times the the ZX2's 2.0l. 25 HP for a 2.0 would be 100 HP for a 454. A 454 (7.4l) is about 1.29 times larger displacement then a 350. 75x1.29 is exaclty 97.368 HP. Clear this up.


Tom
 

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I emailed them. I will let you know what they say.

So a smaller engine being smaller displacement gets the same amount of Nitrous will produce less HP then a larger displacement engine. Even though the smaller engine will get a higher percentage of N2O in the intake then a large engine?

Hopefully I will get a response by tomorrow.

FWIW, I am not trying to prove you wrong. Whenever a discussion like this happens, everyone learns from it. I can only go by what I have read in a book, by a websites FAQ's, and other people. If I am wrong, then Nitrous Express is lying about the input. If you go by percentages, then a Geo Metro with a 75 HP shot might have (I am throwing numbers in the air here, these are not exact) 75% oxygen in the intake, then lets say HP increases would be 75 HP (in example). Lets say the Metro has 100 HP. (I know it doesnt). Take the same ammount of Nitrous in the 454 has 25% nitrous in the intake, but it has 400 HP. 18% more oxygen would add 75 HP. Hopefully the email to Nitrous Express will answer that question.

I am learning alot. I like discuss details and enjoy seeing different points of view. 25 HP out of a Nitrous kit that turns that 16 second ZX2 to a 14 second car is impressive. 25 HP cut 2 seconds from his 1/4 mile? I hope Nitrous Express will answer this question.

BTW, the ZX2 has a "wet" kit.


Time for bed...

Tom
 

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Umm. lets say we're talking about a wet system that injects nitrous and fuel into an intake manifold. As long as you have the same pressure on the bottle, and the same nozzle, you'll get the same boost.

The amount of extra oxygen being injested by the engine in the form of nitrous is directly related to the boost in output.. it has nothing to do with the size of the engine.

Now if you inject twice as much nitrous into a motor because you've got twice as much displacement.. then you can expect twice as much extra output.

It's like, if you take the 600hp restrictor plates off of a Winston Cup stockcar and put them on the intake of a 800hp N/A drag car.. it'll only put out 600hp. The amount of power produced is directly proportional to the amount of air ingested into the engine... cylinders and displacement are just numbers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
8O

.. then you may be right.. i have aboslutely no experience with wet kits.. i'm sure numbers and percentages change when you add extra fuel into the picture..
 

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You have no choice but to add the correct amount of fuel. If you go over the required amount you'll loose hp and waste fuel, and if you go under the required amount your engine will go BOOM.

Again, I say, oxygen intake = power. Nitrous = oxygen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Been thinking and reading -

and yes, beaver - i know oxygen = power :)

Since the 2.0 zetec engine is a higher revving - higher flowing liter for liter engine than a sohc 16v 350, i would imagine a direct comparison of the two is a little off.. you would have to account for how much air the engine is actually pulling.. shot size is determinted on a 350hp 350ci engine. i don't know how many ci a 2.0 zetec engine is, but i'm sure it's less than 130ci, which would make it 1:1 hp:ci. since the zetec is already pulling more o2 per ci than the 350, i would imagine they breakdown of the nitrous would not be as i said.. a 75 shot would probably be more like half of that, and i would imagine a 130hp zetec engine with a 75 shot would put out around 35-40 extra hp.

Maybe i had one too many beers with dinner. Maybe i'm talking out mah ass. It all makes sense to me.. and like i said - i've never had any experience with a wet kit.

.. and the restictor plate analogy is boggling my mind.. i'll get back to you on that one... i have to figure out how they work first.. :)
 

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You're way overthinking it. :D

If you inject the nitrous and fuel, the engine is consuming it.

Sure, a high reving 4 valve per cylinder engine is injesting more air/liter. . but as soon as you inject nitrous and fuel, flow rates are irrelevant (up to the point where the engine blows up because there's not enough exhaust flow to handle all the extra volume).
 

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Revvitupegt said:
Tom(Caymen) can be a cocky and arrogant SOB sometimes but he knows what he is talking about.Although I dont know him personally I do know him through 3+ years of posting on the yahoogroups EGT mailing list.If he posts to dispute something that is said there is a very good chance he is right,usually like 9 times out of 10 and while I dont always agree with his opinions he's usually spot on with his facts and if you doubt his credibility you can always ask Donnie,Matt, Denis or any of the other guys who have been around just as long if not longer.

I didnt post this to argue with anyone, just pointing out to people who dont know him if he calls bullshit its because he has a good reason to
hehe and if you think he's bad we will let Don lose in here :)

Bet yes Tom has lots of good info. It just doesn't always come with a pretty pink bow!
 

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wow this is an informative discussion. From what I understand the power of an engine is directly related to the oxygen available to burn. Now obviously you have to add more fuel to burn it but the oxygen is what makes the power (obviously most of you understand this but it might help others). So by using N20 (hope thats right) which has a higher oxygen consintration than "air" you get a power increase. So.... if you flow enough oxygen (in the form of n20 with the added fuel of a wet kit) to produce a 75HP bang... it should be 75hp worth of explosive force whether it is in a go-kart or a catapillar motor. Maybe I'm thinking of this to simply but it makes sense to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
i've way overthinked this so much i don't even know what i'm talking about myself..

i can't wait to hear their response (even though i'm sure i'll be proven wrong :) )
 

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I left this one alone long enough... First off, I want to see dyno sheets for 305 hp with the stock cams and nothing internal to the engine. That would be a pretty good feat. 300 hp is not something easy to get out of 1.8L. Engines are nothing but air pumps, the more air in the more power. If this guy had said the engine was also punched a full mil over, then I may want to believe him - the static compression increase would really help make more power (as long as we have the fuel management) And to clear up the nitrous issue - think of the nitrous system as a completely seperate engine. its own fuel and its own oxygen. That mix of oxygen and gasoline is capable of producing a certain amount of power. It doesn't matter what size the engine is (yes, the exhaust will play an issue, as will the spark) it can produce the same power. 75hp shots are just that 75 hp shots, IF you have the required fuel and spark to make it happen.
 

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TitoElSpicco,

In discussions like this, it is an asset to everyone of us to learn. You read magazine adds that say "Ten extra horses by just changing your spark plugs to _____." We all know that is impossible. Engines are, as others have said, air pumps. More air in, more fuel, more air out, more power. That is plain physics. After you get to a point, then tuning comes into play.

When Don and I (the same Don that Matt is speaking about) put the Nitrous on his ZX2, we werent expecting much. You hear NOS (the brand) claim a dry kit is safer then a wet kit. Shortly after Ford started producing the ZX2, they made a dry kit for it. One member of the ZX2 mailing list (IIRC what Don told me) put a NOS system in his ZX2. The first time he sprayed, he blew his engine up. Why?, it went lean. Way too lean. NOS found the error, and replaced his engine. Donald went with a wet kit. It injects Nitrous with the proper ammount of fuel needed for the nitrous injected. This way, the ECU system really doesn't see the nitrous being injected. Since the A/F ratio remains relatively stoich, the ECU will make minor adjustments. He has been spraying for about 3 years and has never had a problem with the engine. Because of my experience with that Nitrous system, I would install a kit like that. A wet kit. If a stock ECU in a turbo application has trouble keeping up with 5 lbs of boost, how much trouble would it have with 75 HP worth of Nitrous? I am really afraid to find out.

Matt knows the same people I know from the Escort GT list. Many of them are running anything from an APEXi S-AFC to control fuel, to others using a complete stand alone Haltech system. One member is even a parapalegic (Denis) that installed a GTX engine in an Automatic engine. To acomplish that feat, he has his engine controled by a Haltech ECU, while the transmission is still controled by the stock ECU. Since it is a 1996 EGT (OBD-II compliant) he was completely on his own. You should see the differences between the 1991 -1995 EGT's to the 1996 EGT's. Lots of stuff are different.

If 300+ HP was that easy to get with "the perfect turbo" we would all be running turbo's in our EGT's. Hell, if the setup costs $2000.00 and I would be set, I would do it in a heartbeat. My biggest concern is detonation and getting the ECU tuned correctly. Yes, Jesse has showed me his setup and is willing to help me install everything, I am still scared to blow up a rare engine that my GTR is.

Tom

p.s. No reply from Nitrous Express yet.
 

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I think the biggest problem with this entire thread is that the subject reads "bolt on turbo kit". It's very clear to many of us that you cannot simply "bolt on" a 305hp turbo kit to a high compression motor, there's much more to it.
crazy said:
My car has alot of modification, the only thing stock in the engine bay is the engine. My fuel system has been upgraded, ignition upgrade, running a stand alone system and and a few other things here and there. Fact is the engine was bone stock and it had low compression before the dyno and the car was on race gas. For those of you who dont know **** about real race setup, please no comment. I am not selling anything else but what was listed sorry because im upgraded my system. 305hp is not much here in florida you will get walked by alot a cars, so im going bigger. I am asking $1000 for everything. For those of you who still believe more than 12 psi is too much for a stock gtx motor...you gonna get spanked alot omn the road.
Now, crazy seemingly admitted that he's running a gtx motor, quite different from the motors in your GTs. It's built with lower compression and runs 12psi in the midrange when stock. It's been known for many years that a simple mechanical boost control allows the gtx motor to run on 16 very safe psi (so I'm not sure who he's preaching to), but even then we're talking about less than 230 flywheel hp. *shrug*

BTW, Matt: I smoked this Ferrari Enzo on the way home.. he was turning left and had a red light.. and I was going straight and got the green. If he'd taken his eyes off the breasts of his excruciatingly hot, bikini-clad, 20yr old companion for a moment, he might have seen me scream by @ 25[crazy]mph and given chase. Mark another one up for BeaversWagen. :p

(No Ferraris, Escorts, platypi, or gorgeous women were harmed in the from-scratch fabrication of this story)
 

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Hey Beav, did you eat paint chips as a kid? (But seriously all of you out in FEOA land. I saw the Beav do this via a webcast that he was hosting from the interior of his wagon. It was sick the way that guy was eye-balling his bikini clad......I mean, it was sick the way he blew the doors off that Enzo.......yo.)
 
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