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IMPORTANT, EVERYONE READ!
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Heh, I agree with the article. There've been hundreds of people killed over there on our side, and it's been much, much worse on the Iraqis... The latest estimate I saw said we've killed around 8-15 thousand civilians so far, and over a hundred thousand military personel.
Anyways, out of the ones that we've lost, very few of them got anything more than a mention, if that, in the media, and suddenly the guy who gave up a football contract to go be a ranger gets killed and 'oooh, it's interesting, therefore we label him a hero.' And it was all pointless, the whole war was started under highly questionable circumstances... Not gonna go over the details but I didn't give him anything more than a 'hm, interesting' when I first saw it in the paper and didn't think much more about it until now. :\ I'm pretty sure for all the media's reaction that's what everybody else did, too. I'm not saying I'm not sorry he died, that it wasn't a bad thing. Because it was.
If that guy's site thinks the guy who wrote the article is a dick, then fine, but let's see him post his own phone number and e-mail to be harassed too. In fact, everybody who's gonna encourage someone to harass someone else, put up your own info too, if you're not a coward.
Agh, I agreed with Sirigan. I feel dirty. Har.
Anyways, out of the ones that we've lost, very few of them got anything more than a mention, if that, in the media, and suddenly the guy who gave up a football contract to go be a ranger gets killed and 'oooh, it's interesting, therefore we label him a hero.' And it was all pointless, the whole war was started under highly questionable circumstances... Not gonna go over the details but I didn't give him anything more than a 'hm, interesting' when I first saw it in the paper and didn't think much more about it until now. :\ I'm pretty sure for all the media's reaction that's what everybody else did, too. I'm not saying I'm not sorry he died, that it wasn't a bad thing. Because it was.
If that guy's site thinks the guy who wrote the article is a dick, then fine, but let's see him post his own phone number and e-mail to be harassed too. In fact, everybody who's gonna encourage someone to harass someone else, put up your own info too, if you're not a coward.
Agh, I agreed with Sirigan. I feel dirty. Har.
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ya but the guy who wrote the article wrote it completely wrong. he gives absolutly no respect for the guy at all. if it wasn't for people like pat tillman that guy wouldn't be able to voice his opinion as freely as he does. i think that everyone that is in the armed services is a hero, whether they die or not.
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Im in the airforce if some of you dont know.....Pretty much anyone in the military is a hero because it takes a big person to put his/her life on the line to protect someone else's liberty whom they dont know.....This whole pat tillman thing was brought wat outta proportion jus cuz he gave up his contract........If he was not a nfl player he would not be in the paper bottom line. there was countless other ppl in the armed forces who died fighting for the same thing he did and they barley get 3 lines in the daily news hero for giving up his contract no......hero for fighting for what he believed in yes
According to the Patriot Act my ability to speak my mind is a freedom that isn't guaranteed by the military.. but by my apparent non-terrorist status. Since the Cold War (when our military was used for intimidation) our military is only used for peacekeeping or energykeeping. The Iraqi war is not a peacekeeping operation.. it is not a matter of national security. The men and women who are currently serving in Iraq are there to keep our gas prices below the $2/gallon mark for the next 5 years... not to protect our freedoms. And with the killing of so many iraqis and the amount of hardship the average iraqi has undergone, any arguments about our soldiers being there to protect them or improve their way of life is rediculous.Slapyo said:
I think that granting everyone in the military hero status is a little unfair to the true heros. A friend of mine who came out of the Marines with no love for the world and a lust for killing people is no hero.. he's a conditioned tool who could care less about his or anyone else's individual freedoms as long as he has someone to shoot at. There are many heros in the military who do service for the sake of other americans, but subscribing yourself to Uncle Sam with dreams of warfare is not how to make yourself a hero.
Want to be a hero to your freedoms? Read about the current threats to your rights (they're right here in the US, and I suggest you start w/ the Patriot Act). Vote for people who you think will protect your freedoms. Write your congresspeople and express your oppinions. Inform others and encourage them to use their rights and voice their oppinions.
That said: Support our soldiers.. bring them home.
where to begin... being from AZ tillman has obviously been all the news. I heard about this article but hadn't actually read it. I can honestly say I was so angry I was shaking. This is the kind of shit that led me to buy my "Live free or Die" T-shirt. sure its a little over the top but who cares.
The truth is none of us know whether tillman was a hero or not. I read a lot of history especially war related. From all I've taken of it the oppinion of most soldiers that survive is the real hero's don't come home. Take from that what you will.
You can argue iraq all you want. But what the fuck does that have to do with Tillman? He joined under no fan fare because of 9-11. He refused to talk to any press and dropped everything for something he believed in. He went to Afghanistan not once but twice from what I hear. None of us can guess his real motivation. But you have the respect the fact that he cared enough for his family and in turn our whole country enough to run out there with people shooting at him. He wasn't at 30K feet dropping smart bombs.
If you don't agree with our president fine. For the record I've always been glad for the iraq war because of the Iraqi peoples suffering. Last I read 1 million people in mass graves! You say we had no right to go in there? Your wrong legally and morally. IF you think that your probably the same person that will watch a child get molested and not do anything about it. We can't fix all the worlds wrongs but we should be glad when we can fix some of them.
Anyway back to the topic at hand. IS Tillman a hero? You will have to ask the people he served with. They are the only ones who can trully answer that. To me in the world where Jason Williams Pops his limo driver point blank with a shotgun and then covers it up, or where sports stars (and pop stars) are hailed as great role models I think he is one. He showed that contrary to popular belief you can forgo the good life to stand for something you really believe in. When was the last time any of you gave up an amazing opportunity and dream for many for extreme hardship? I give all of our military respect. I'm know they aren't all perfect. But at least they are trying. We would all like to think we would run into the burning building or take down that murdering bank robber to save a few people. The truth is we don't know if we could. But I can tell you people like Tillman, the people in our armed service, police, fireman, hospital workers etc are a hell of a lot closer to being Hero's than most of us. Me included. So before you force you political bullshit on this guy and his family. Remember he atleast tried to make the world a better place and paid the ultimate price for it. As did his wife and family.
The truth is none of us know whether tillman was a hero or not. I read a lot of history especially war related. From all I've taken of it the oppinion of most soldiers that survive is the real hero's don't come home. Take from that what you will.
You can argue iraq all you want. But what the fuck does that have to do with Tillman? He joined under no fan fare because of 9-11. He refused to talk to any press and dropped everything for something he believed in. He went to Afghanistan not once but twice from what I hear. None of us can guess his real motivation. But you have the respect the fact that he cared enough for his family and in turn our whole country enough to run out there with people shooting at him. He wasn't at 30K feet dropping smart bombs.
If you don't agree with our president fine. For the record I've always been glad for the iraq war because of the Iraqi peoples suffering. Last I read 1 million people in mass graves! You say we had no right to go in there? Your wrong legally and morally. IF you think that your probably the same person that will watch a child get molested and not do anything about it. We can't fix all the worlds wrongs but we should be glad when we can fix some of them.
Anyway back to the topic at hand. IS Tillman a hero? You will have to ask the people he served with. They are the only ones who can trully answer that. To me in the world where Jason Williams Pops his limo driver point blank with a shotgun and then covers it up, or where sports stars (and pop stars) are hailed as great role models I think he is one. He showed that contrary to popular belief you can forgo the good life to stand for something you really believe in. When was the last time any of you gave up an amazing opportunity and dream for many for extreme hardship? I give all of our military respect. I'm know they aren't all perfect. But at least they are trying. We would all like to think we would run into the burning building or take down that murdering bank robber to save a few people. The truth is we don't know if we could. But I can tell you people like Tillman, the people in our armed service, police, fireman, hospital workers etc are a hell of a lot closer to being Hero's than most of us. Me included. So before you force you political bullshit on this guy and his family. Remember he atleast tried to make the world a better place and paid the ultimate price for it. As did his wife and family.
WRONG.egtdude said:
He fought for revenge. (probably- in all honesty I don't know)
Propaganda used revenge to get people enlisted. Sure, politicians were upset that 9/11 happened, and all the incompetent ******** can write all the sappy country songs they want about it, but at the base of that, it was a very good thing for the military. It got a bunch of pissed off people to think that we actually went over to Iraq to fight for "justice" or "freedom" or one of those other abstractions. Well, anybody with a middle school education can figure out that that just isn't the case...
If you disagree with anything I said, you are wrong.
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there is no possible way ANYBODY can know exactly what his motive was, because he chose to do it, and no matter what he said, he could have been thinkin somethin totally different.
my cousin, was a red beret. there's only 300 of them in the world. while in iraq, he was killed in a most violent way, and others that were riding with him were also injured. it was a closed casket funeral, they wouldn't even allow his mother to see the body. just as this guy did, he payed the ultimate price. but he really loved what he was doing, and he died serving his country. the point is, no matter what your opinion is, it's just that. your opinion. it is not your place to tell somebody what is 'stupid' and what is not, and it sure as **** isn't your place to talk bad about somebody that died serving the country that you live your happy little life in.
my cousin, was a red beret. there's only 300 of them in the world. while in iraq, he was killed in a most violent way, and others that were riding with him were also injured. it was a closed casket funeral, they wouldn't even allow his mother to see the body. just as this guy did, he payed the ultimate price. but he really loved what he was doing, and he died serving his country. the point is, no matter what your opinion is, it's just that. your opinion. it is not your place to tell somebody what is 'stupid' and what is not, and it sure as **** isn't your place to talk bad about somebody that died serving the country that you live your happy little life in.
You want to call it revenge? fine by me! I feel bad for innocent people that got hurt/killed but I sure as hell don't feel bad for any taliban/al qaeda (sp?) that got what was coming.siragan said:WRONG.egtdude said:
He fought for revenge. (probably- in all honesty I don't know)
Propaganda used revenge to get people enlisted. Sure, politicians were upset that 9/11 happened, and all the incompetent ******** can write all the sappy country songs they want about it, but at the base of that, it was a very good thing for the military. It got a bunch of pissed off people to think that we actually went over to Iraq to fight for "justice" or "freedom" or one of those other abstractions. Well, anybody with a middle school education can figure out that that just isn't the case...
If you disagree with anything I said, you are wrong.
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Unless your one of those people that think those people killed on 9-11 deserved it? If so we can stop the discussion now because I can't even remotly fathom that thought process.
Just because he was in the military doesn't mean we still can't talk **** about him. If you're all about the freedom that the /constitution,/ not the military, provides us with, then think about this. We have the freedom to talk however we want about whoever we want. If you take away that, as many seem to want to, then we have no more freedom than the people of Iraq under Hussein, or any other dictatorship. The freedom to criticise is part of our rights, so yes, in fact, I can talk **** about them, it is my place to do so, regardless of whether they're protecting that freedom or not.
'Live Free or Die' is an oxymoron. You're basically saying 'follow my opinion or die' because he IS living free, he's using his freedom to express an opinion. Furthermore, someone who opposes a war that was started based on LIES, is NOT the same type of person who would watch a chilld get molested and not do anything, that's just an insult and if I thought it were personal I would resent it.
Just because he chose to be in the military, that doesn't make him or anybody else a better person, it doesn't make you a hero, just because you're in the army/air force/navy. I know plenty of people that are in the forces that do not consider themselves heros, they're doing it because college didn't fit them and it's better than working minimum waged jobs for the rest of forever, and more respectable.
As for the taliban/al queda - IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THAT!! It's been said, time and time again, by the CIA and plenty of other high ranking officials, that all that was bullcrap, there's no evidence that he had any working connections with Bin Laden or the taliban. Hussein was secular, they were religious fanatics. That'd be like the right wing born again Christians being in league with the left wing Gay/Lesbian Athiest's association. They hated each other. (No offense to either group.)
'Live Free or Die' is an oxymoron. You're basically saying 'follow my opinion or die' because he IS living free, he's using his freedom to express an opinion. Furthermore, someone who opposes a war that was started based on LIES, is NOT the same type of person who would watch a chilld get molested and not do anything, that's just an insult and if I thought it were personal I would resent it.
Just because he chose to be in the military, that doesn't make him or anybody else a better person, it doesn't make you a hero, just because you're in the army/air force/navy. I know plenty of people that are in the forces that do not consider themselves heros, they're doing it because college didn't fit them and it's better than working minimum waged jobs for the rest of forever, and more respectable.
As for the taliban/al queda - IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THAT!! It's been said, time and time again, by the CIA and plenty of other high ranking officials, that all that was bullcrap, there's no evidence that he had any working connections with Bin Laden or the taliban. Hussein was secular, they were religious fanatics. That'd be like the right wing born again Christians being in league with the left wing Gay/Lesbian Athiest's association. They hated each other. (No offense to either group.)
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you're missing the point entirely..... it's sacriligious to talk bad about the dead you asscoyote-x said:
i'm sure you would LOVE for somebody to talk **** about you and say that **** in front of your family
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I got mad respect for the people out there fighting, (hats off, for sure) and I definetly don't take that for granted, but I sometimes thing that the false pride instilled by the media upon the citizens can lead to unnecessary actions.
That's about as concise as I can be.
</rant>
That's about as concise as I can be.
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This posts is getting real serious. Those who have died for this country or for that matter any country do not need to be humiliated or disrespected. Its not a matter of rights but a matter of morals. You do not have to like the U.S. government policies nor do you have to care what I type, but in either respect the dead are dead they can not defend themselves so therefore you can not talk smack about them.
1 million Kurds who were staging violent uprisings against the Iraqi government. Take a moment to read up on who the Kurds are. They are a large demographic of Iraq that refused to be recognized as Iraqi citizens. When they rose up, Saddam lay them back down.. no different than our own Abe Lincoln... funny though.. he's one of our all-time national heroes. (before you mention the killing of women & children in Iraq by Saddam's military leaders.. I'll remind you of Sherman's little BBQ in Atlanta)egtdude said:
Another of Saddam's apparent travesties is that he used force to chase the Sheite muslims out of Iraq. This is true. Iraq was once one of the most progressive nations in the Middle East. Racial and sexual equality were very advanced in a part of the world many of us consider to be backwards. Nations like Saudi Arabia, where Islamic Law (promoted by the ruling class of Sheite Muslims) is the basis for the government's laws, are worlds where the freedom you speak of protecting is dead. Since Saddam was removed from power a year ago, the Sheite muslims have flooded back into Iraq. As it stands, the majority of potential voters in Iraq are Sheites and wish to take over Iraq once GWB sets up his little democracy.
Go us. :roll:
Yes. I firmly believe we should not have invade Iraq. We were under no threat from Iraq, and we've done the Iraqi people no good service.
You know what man? I wouldn't care. You know why? I'm DEAD, that's why. I wouldn't even know. You'll notice I didn't say anything bad about him, except that I didn't really think he was a hero, anyways. That's not insulting anybody. Anything wrong with that? I said, that I have the /right/ to if I want, which I do, by law, according to the United States constitution. No disputing that, as it is a FACT. This country is not, not yet anyways, ruled by religious groups, as far as I know. At least not up front.thescortgt said:
Let me clarify: I'm not saying he was a bad person, that he deserved to die, or anything else. I just don't think that he was a hero, hell they haven't even released information on what he died doing, right? If I disagree with Iraq, and someone died in Iraq, and I called them a hero, wouldn't that mean that I thought they died for a cause which I believed was just and right, for the good of the country or whatever else? By logic, I think it would. So, by calling him a hero, I would then be agreeing with Iraq, which I don't. If he had what it takes to a be a ranger, he was probably a good man. The best our country has to offer. I'm just saying, I don't think he was a hero. Does this make sense??
Something I'd like to add, have you SEEN the pictures of what some of our troops have been caught doing to the prisoners over there? Sexual abuse, torture, some of the sickest things I've ever seen. Form your own opinion about what it means, but it stands there, that less than a year into this, we end up doing ths same things Saddam did.
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it seems you're tripping up on your own words.... because by the logic you presented, by calling him a hero, you would then be disagreeing with iraq, where you said you would be agreeing.coyote-x said:
your logic says basically this....
you disagree with iraq= he's a hero
you call him a hero= you agree with iraq
which does not make sense... if you'd like to clarify more, by all means go ahead
i agree with you there, that is sick. and by doing such things it doesn't make THOSE soldiers any better than the german soldiers' actions in russian cities during world war IIcoyote-x said:
but that doesn't mean you should brand all of our soldiers the same way
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