Eruo 1.6l rockers on 1.9l? | Ford Escort Owners Association (FEOA)

Eruo 1.6l rockers on 1.9l?

Discussion in '1st Gen 1981-1990 CVH' started by austin86, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. austin86

    austin86 That nut who spends way to much on a escort.

    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Ohio
    Dose anyone know of the the rockers for the 1.6l across the pound will fit our 1.9l motors?
    Thanks.

    PS any tips on were to get roller rockers for the 1.9l would be useful too.
  2. 1982 EXPert

    1982 EXPert FEOA Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    All OEM CVH rockers are identical.
    Only thing "different" is the 1.6s use studs while the 1.9/2.0 uses bolts.

    Harland Sharp is a US vendor that makes roller rockers about $370 a set, if you buy 12 sets or more you get a decent discount when purchased from them directly.
    Here's a link via Summit Racing, certain times of the year you get $20 off your purchase - that's a good time to buy these as that's cheaper than Harland offers them, not to mention Summit's free shipping!
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/csp-s40016/applications/

    I'll order a set this summer, eager to try them as they should reduce valvetrain mass & friction a fair bit!
    austin86 and Pyoro like this.
  3. Joey_Twowagons

    Joey_Twowagons FEOA Member

    Messages:
    2,163
    Likes Received:
    952
    Trophy Points:
    363
    Location:
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Thanks for that info. I had read the very long post from way back about H-S making some prototypes but had assumed that they never went into production.

    https://www.feoa.net/threads/roller-rockers-for-cvh-now-market-ready.52455/

    Surprisingly, they are not listed on the Burton Power (UK) site.

    I am concerned that the shipping date "directly from the manufacturer" is a month away, implying that they are not in stock.
    Also, they are advertised as 1.6 ratio, but somewhere in the long old post the ratio was said to be 1.68 stock. If all this be true, then the valve lift will be lower than stock.
  4. 1982 EXPert

    1982 EXPert FEOA Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Yeah that whole thread is quite a mess, especially when replies get off-topic.....

    When I contacted Harland directly they said they'd be to my door in a week's time or less, so they're either in stock or can be within a few days. They're based out of the South-West so they should ship kind of quick.

    They're not listed in Burton Power because Harland is based in the states. There's 2 vendors in the UK that make their own though, one is Gradient Engineering. They make more bulky rockers in light/sand-green and a longer wait time closer to a month, Harland's are slim and orange. I'll try to grab a pick of each but Harland's are preferred as they fit under our all valve covers.

    The stock ratio is supposed to be 1.64 but they might have just rounded it down for their description.

    I've been trying to do the math and physics in my head but I believe the ratio is the same no matter what you put on there as long as you use the factory studs/bolt holes. The distance between the lifter and the pivot then the pivot and the valve is set in stone (1.64) unless you can move the pivot-point which would mean moving or re-angling the pivot bolt/stud.

    That's the only way push-rod V8s can have different ratio rockers because yes the valve and pivot distance can't change but the push rod can move in/out changing the ratio that way. We're kind of screwed unless you relocate the bolts/studs OR buy these roller rockers and make a custom pivot shaft that's a little offset so the pivot moves a little closer to the lifter.

    I'll try to make a visual aide to help show what I'm talking about, I know it's rather wordy and cumbersome lol Stay tuned......
    austin86 likes this.
  5. 1982 EXPert

    1982 EXPert FEOA Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Here's the follow-up with the rocker pics
    Orange is Harland (US) at $375
    Grey/green is Gradient Engineering (UK) at $525
    Yellow is the other UK vendor that I can't find......

    Harland doesn't list them on their website so you have to email them and they'll get back to you towards the end of the business day, or just order from Summit.
    NOTE their rockers are beveled down the sides now to fit under the valve covers, that's an old pic from the forums.....
    Which is a big deal because you can see Gradiant's barely fit and are chewing up the gasket lol

    Screen Shot 2020-02-14 at 7.51.17 AM.png rollerrockers.jpg photo.jpg
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
    Joey_Twowagons and austin86 like this.
  6. 1982 EXPert

    1982 EXPert FEOA Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Hopefully this helps paint the picture when I say the rocker ratio would be very hard to change on the CVH.

    It's obviously exaggerated showing a difference between 1:1 and 1.66:1 but that was a good way of showing how to over come the issues where the SOHC engine has the valve 2" from the lifter (which can't be changed) and the push-rod engine where the valve is 1" from the rocker stud (which can't usually be altered easily).

    So by moving the pivot point you can change your rocker ratio and valve lift.
    But push-rod engines usually have the room to move the pushrod 0.125" either direction which is much easier to do and makes a big difference when you're already at 1.66:1 - moving the pushrod 0.10" closer in my illustration turns the ratio into 2:1 assuming the pivot and valve are merely 1" apart.

    Like I said, if you could make an off-set shaft to move the pivot point of the SOHC rockers back 0.10" they'd become 1.85:1 in my illustration.
    I'll measure my rockers some time to get a proper distance measurement so I can get a more accurate cause-effect calculation for moving the pivot to change the ratio.....
    But it's unlikely you could do it in real life because you can see the rocker is already riding the head casting of the lifter bores :/

    Screen Shot 2020-02-14 at 8.35.57 AM.png
    Joey_Twowagons, Pyoro and austin86 like this.
  7. austin86

    austin86 That nut who spends way to much on a escort.

    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Ohio
    Thanks, I find it odd those never showed up when I looked on summits site as I been buying hipo parts left and right for my EXP there.
    I got with Harland Sharp, they quoted me $325+shipping and told me they have all the parts for them in stock but they have to assemble them before shipping . I'll be for sure getting a set from them.
    Pyoro and 1982 EXPert like this.
  8. Joey_Twowagons

    Joey_Twowagons FEOA Member

    Messages:
    2,163
    Likes Received:
    952
    Trophy Points:
    363
    Location:
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    I agree that it's pretty well impossible to change the rocker arm ratio on the CVH type head with bolt on parts. Thanks for the explanation.
    1982 EXPert likes this.
  9. austin86

    austin86 That nut who spends way to much on a escort.

    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Ohio
    After emailing Harland Sharp they told me they used to have higher rocker ratio but no longer offer it as they brake from added stress.
  10. Joey_Twowagons

    Joey_Twowagons FEOA Member

    Messages:
    2,163
    Likes Received:
    952
    Trophy Points:
    363
    Location:
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Okay, after EXPert showed us how it is virtually impossible to change the rocker arm ratio on the CVH style head, I'd like to know how Harland Sharp did it!
    It seems you'd have to move the fulcrum point in the head (i.e. the rocker stud) which would be a tricky operation. I suppose you could weld up the threaded hole, then drill and tap it in a slightly different location.

    I'd like to know what the ratio of the H-S 1.9 / 1.6 roller rockers really is. If it were less than stock, it might not be worth installing them without a special high lift cam to compensate.
    I don't think such cams are available now.
    It's got to be same as stock, right?
  11. austin86

    austin86 That nut who spends way to much on a escort.

    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Ohio
    I would think they are the same as stock. I asked but did not get an clear reply on it.
    I asked them if they had rockers with a higher ratio and was told they used to make them but no longer. I told them to go thought with the order only if the rockers they sell have the stock ratio or higher.
    I was never told what the ratio was, but the order is still going though so I would amuse they are stock. I'll likely have cam made so its not a big deal is they are 1.6 and not 1.66 or 1.64 or what ever it is.
  12. 1982 EXPert

    1982 EXPert FEOA Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I mentioned that one possible option is to slightly offset the shaft in the center of the roller rocker to move the pivot point.

    Here's a "top-down" illustration of what you could do to the pivot shaft where it bolts to the head, then you just have to move the holes in the rocker arm body to match the new offset shaft (because you moved the axle's pivot point).
    Screen Shot 2020-02-18 at 5.19.51 PM.png

    But the issue with any change in the rocker ratio is that the rocker arm already pivots REALLY close to the head - specifically the castings for the lifter bores. Maybe you can grind them down but I'm not sure.....
  13. Joey_Twowagons

    Joey_Twowagons FEOA Member

    Messages:
    2,163
    Likes Received:
    952
    Trophy Points:
    363
    Location:
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Maybe that's what H-S did, which would explain why the rockers were breaking from added stress.

    I wonder who bought those H-S high ratio roller rockers way back when?
    I would guess nobody that's still on this board.
    1982 EXPert likes this.
  14. 1982 EXPert

    1982 EXPert FEOA Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    So few have bought the normal/current ones that it's hard to find ANY reviews on them, everyone who gets them saves them for a decade-long engine build lol

    Maybe when mine come in this summer they'll only sit for 2 years lol
  15. austin86

    austin86 That nut who spends way to much on a escort.

    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Ohio
  16. 1982 EXPert

    1982 EXPert FEOA Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I'm definitely curious how he made them in 1.60, 1.65, and 1.68 ratios

    No idea why he did 1.60 because that's a drop in lift from the factory rockers but I'm still curious how they all worked out, I can't find anything else beyond that post on his rockers, sadly the pictures he said he added are nowhere to be found :(

    You can fudge a little bit by moving either end of the rocker arm in/out but if your rocker isn't centered on the valve stem you can mushroom the valve stem or the rocker can fall off the stem and end up on the spring retainer instead.
    They say you'll have issues if your rocker isn't centered on the lifter but I can't remember what.....
  17. Joey_Twowagons

    Joey_Twowagons FEOA Member

    Messages:
    2,163
    Likes Received:
    952
    Trophy Points:
    363
    Location:
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    "You can fudge a little bit by moving either end of the rocker arm in/out but if your rocker isn't centered on the valve stem you can mushroom the valve stem or the rocker can fall off the stem and end up on the spring retainer instead."

    Exactly. Very bad practice, maybe for racing use where it doesn't have to last long it's acceptable. It puts side loads on the valves and lifters.
    In engine rebuilding practice one often checks to make sure that the rocker arm tip contact is centered on the valve tip by first coloring the tip with a marker pen, then looking at how this is wiped off as the valve is opened and closed.

    I guess you could also do some monkey business with shorter or longer valves, then making the rocker arm longer to reach.

    I also agree that it is highly odd that lower rocker arm ratios were made. I take those old claims with a grain of salt.

    I like the idea of the roller rocker arms, it is a more elegant way to operate a valve train. But the stock system is darn durable.
    1982 EXPert and austin86 like this.

Share This Page