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downshift rev-matching question

1529 Views 18 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  driftboy
Hey guys,
can I rev match my input (clutch plate) to my output (clutch lining) without double clutching?

I´m a standard newb, and I´ve just been doing this:
1.Clutch in
2.Downshift (i.e. from 4 to 3)
3.Rev engine a tad to sync the tranny
4.Release clutch

Does this work, or do I have to shift to neutral, let off the clutch, rev, THEN downshift?

I know the syncros does this for me, but I´m planning on teaching friends how to drive a standard, and I want to make sure I get it right.
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I think I ususally just let off the gas, slow down to a reasonable RPM, clutch, shift, let off, then gas as I am letting off if I am accelerating out of a turn, or passing. There really is no need to gas before letting off the clutch that I know of. But then again, I´m no road racer either. Most of my time racing is straight ahead.
It´s perfectly fine. Helps to sync you tranny. Sometimes you´ll need to shift for example from 4 to 2nd. Most lackely syncronizer will not sync it right away. And you hear that ghrrrinding sound. Still this way is not as good as double clutching because you´re not spining your plate. But it´ll help your tranny and clutch live long healphy life.
When the hell are you going to shift your tranny from 4th to 2nd???? I could mabe understand if you are going like 1000 rpm in 4th, then maybe, but if you haven´t hit 3rd before you get that low you need to relearn how to drive a stick. 4-3 at about 2500-3K should give you plenty of engine braking deceleration, then if you get to low in the RPM in a turn, hit second right after the apex and pull out. ather than that I can´t see going 4-2 for anyreason unless you are trying to pull a trailer up a hill, but why would you do that in an Escort.
Well I drive a standard shift more smoothly than anybody I know, but I don´t know if my technique is right. I´ve been told on websites that I´ve read that if you´re doing it smooth then you´re doing it right, but I just want to make sure.

What I do on all of my shifts (not just 1st gear from a dead stop) is give a little gas just when the syncros kicks in and everything begins to engage. My rev is well matched most of the time, too. Here´s exactly what I do when upshifting: (lets say from 2 to 3)

1.Rev up to about 2600rpm or so, while still in 2nd
2.Put light pressure on the stick fowards
3.Push in the clutch about 2/3 of the way (is it okay to only push the clutch in about 2/3rds?)
4. Shift from 2nd to 3rd
5.Let the clutch engage until the "friction point"
6.Give a little gas through the travel of the friction point (about 3" on my escort LX)
7.Floor it once the clutch is full out.

Is this the right way to upshift?
And I´m trying to learn the heel-toe technique, but it´s tough, especially when the gas is so far back, but that´s another story.

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Ok "sir" The topic here is down shifting. Tell us how you go about down shifting, and I want to know when there would be a need to shift from 4-2 as posted earlier in ths string.
Here´s how i shift: rev the engine (sometimes to redline for the hell of it) shove the clutch in with my foot, slam the shifter into second, and while it´s about 2/3rds in the gear, i start releasing the clutch, by the time my foot is off the clutch it´s in gear, then i floor it. unless the speed limit is 25.

Red 92 EGT
Clutch??...who the hell uses a clutch??
Just pound the gas pedal to the floor, wait for the rev limiter to kick in, then just pull/push the shifter into the gear you want. If it starts to grind, just practice that technique a bit more, and sooner or later you´ll get the hang of it.

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Some of you guys are scareing me here. If you are waiting to hit the rev limiter before you shift you are waiting WAY too long. You want to shift at a point that will bring your RPMs down just before the peak of you tourque curve. And you want to do it without slowing the momentum of your car. If you are hitting the rev limiter you are definatly slowing your momentum.
Ok about 4-2. You´re going strait and you have a sharp turn. Like 90griz. No way you can take it smooth on 3rd. And even if you´re you´ll have a huge lag in power after you turn. It´s just some autocrossing tips.
i didn´t think shifting was that complicated, just shift fast enough not too loose any speed, or as little as possible. and i have went from 4-2 in tight turns if i´m hard on the brakes, or if somebody is on my ass, that scares em no brake lights. don´t know all the autocrossing tech. but some of you guys are coming up with some crazy techniques. interesting to hear if they work
Well I was talking about shifting in general...
when I let off the clutch, (and yes, I DO use a clutch
) just when everything starts to catch, I give it a little gas to make things smoother:
is this right, or am I wearing out the clutch by giving it a little gas before it´s fully engaged?

And I´ve never tried shifting before putting the clutch in, and I don´t think I want to go to the rev limiter on my scort.
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Thats one of the more sensable things I´ve read on this thread. I use the clutch all the time, unless I´m just cruising down the freeway. But for speed shifting, it is a lot smoother eith the clutch. If you are quick enough the clutch should ony be in for like half a sec if that. But when I do it without the clutch it seems to take longer to yank it out of gear, then force it into the next gear, esspecially 2-3. And hitting the rev limiter is just insane. I had a girlfriend once who had a Sentra that I swear was limited at 4k RPM. Anytime I´d try to make a left turn across a main street from a parking lot that thing would make it half way across an then throw me forward like it hit a brick wall when the limiter kicked in.
I think that only 1.8i escort owners will understand the 4-2 shift. It happens a lot on that engine. The damn things powerband is up there. I frequently find my self doing shifts like that in tight corners. I mean hell, you can be cruising at 50 mph in 5th gear, see a honda go flying by, push in the clutch, rev it up, and throw it in 2nd no problem.
As far as blipping the throttle in downshifts, double clutching is for semi trucks or cars with racing transmissions. (both of which have no synchos) On a synchronised tranny, rpm matching just helps the transmission keep up with you pounding through gears and helps you mske smooth transitions when shifting. (main goal...keeping traction when you ar pushing it to the max.) Remember, even though the clutch pedal is at the floor, the disc(s) and the flywheel still do rub on eachother a lot.
Well I just got back from a trip from NY to MD and back, and it was quite gun to use the old Scort.
I got to talk to Charles Reichard, an old fogie who is the mastermind behind camcraft camshafts. He makes performance cams for ford broncos and chryslers, and also any cams made custom to spec if you wish. I got to see the whole operation and ask some questions. It was neat stuff.

Anyway, concerning rev-matching. I actually DID double-clutch on all my downshifts during the trip, and even though it´s possible and smooth if you do it right, it´s very very difficult to control. Maybe I don´t have it right, but you have to be extremely fast. I mean I was absolutely flying down through the gears... going from 5...neutral with a rev match... 4th... etc. It was hard and I got a couple looks from the other drivers like "wtf is this guy doing?" lol.

Anyway, my basic question is this:

Does the shift plate still rev even if you have your clutch in and the stick in gear, or do you have to have the stick in neutral and the clutch out??

That´s my question. Plain and simple. Because I can avoid having to shift into neutral to rev-match if I can just go from gear to gear and rev-match while my clutch is in.

On a side note, with two adults, two dogs, and a load full of stuff I managed an even 40.5mpg on the trip! yay!


[ Edited by siragan On Date 09-30-2002 ]

[ Edited by siragan On Date 09-30-2002 ]
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DAMN!! Must be nice to have a standard to have fun with. Can´t double clutch a auto...well you can..but its going to cost around a grand to fix. LOL
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ok.. i dont know if anyone here is interested in japanimation, but there is one that is VERY awesome... Initial D. there is a technique called drifting that they do with involves, pretty much, sliding around corners. it is mostly done in rwd cars like the rx-7 or the trueno. in one of the episodes there is civic hatchback(damn civics) that was drifting, they say it is harder to drift in a fwd car because you have to use the e-brake to make your back end "fish-tail" how this relates to this thread of downshifting techniques is that when you are going through the corner you have to switch from , say 4th to 2nd, but you have to be pressing the brake pedal at the same time.. it is called the "heal and toe" method. basically you press down the brake with your toe and rev the engine with your heal.. this work better with petal covers but i do it without them.

but this is only useful for downshifting in corners.. oh well..
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Okay. The girl that owned the Mibzcort before me (Buddies sister, drove with her before) used to revmatch with the clutch pressed. Other than that she shifted fine. Two weeks after I got the car the clutch went (It wasn´t me, I swear!). I have no proof, but I have a good guess that your clutch will wear faster if you rev match with the clutch pressed. I usually just let my synchros do the work, unless I´m on a 1 lane highway trying to pass. Then I´ll usually double clutch 5 to 3 just to get the nice acceleration and smoothly.

If you´re slowing down quickly (As much as that makes sense) then I think it´s better to just go Gear1, neutral, clutch down, gear, clutch up and let then synchros do the work for you. They´ll need to be replaced far after your clutch.
check out this site if you want ubershift techniques


Hondas are like belly-buttons. Everybodys got one! (check out my car, give me hints) home.neo.rr.com/agentkayl/escort_gt_pic.htm

[ Edited by driftboy On Date 11-18-2002 ]
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