Crap!

OK, I think I'm having to pay for my stupidity from when I re-used the idler when I replaced the timing three years ago. I've got a terrible bearing noise coming from the belt area, like bad bearing. And it happens with the serpentine removed, so I'm hoping it's on the timing belt, because otherwise it is inside the engine and that would be even worse.

I am wanting to be lazy and see if I can just replace the pulley without removing the belt or the lower timing cover. I still have the brand-new idler pulley from my timing kit (but not the instructions). And I only have like 10k miles on the belt because there was a global pandemic, so it is tempting to just replace this one pulley to see if it's the problem. especially if it's as easy as it looks like it might be...

It looks like I might be able to get this pulley out, just by loosening the tension on the belt. See if I can get it past the timing cover then. But I haven't gotten this far, because I forgot which way to turn the tensioner bolt to loosen it! I started pushing harder in each direction, then suddenly I got a sign from God: "Go inside and ask the internet before you break this bolt, you idiot!" Okay, maybe not that direct of a message. But it started POURING rain like crazy, so I got the point.

Which way "tightens" the timing belt tensioner pulley. Is it backwards, like righty-loosey, or regular?

steve60tuesday said:

OK, I think I'm having to pay for my stupidity from when I re-used the idler when I replaced the timing three years ago. I've got a terrible bearing noise coming from the belt area, like bad bearing. And it happens with the serpentine removed, so I'm hoping it's on the timing belt, because otherwise it is inside the engine and that would be even worse.

I am wanting to be lazy and see if I can just replace the pulley without removing the belt or the lower timing cover. I still have the brand-new idler pulley from my timing kit (but not the instructions). And I only have like 10k miles on the belt because there was a global pandemic, so it is tempting to just replace this one pulley to see if it's the problem. especially if it's as easy as it looks like it might be...

It looks like I might be able to get this pulley out, just by loosening the tension on the belt. See if I can get it past the timing cover then. But I haven't gotten this far, because I forgot which way to turn the tensioner bolt to loosen it! I started pushing harder in each direction, then suddenly I got a sign from God: "Go inside and ask the internet before you break this bolt, you idiot!" Okay, maybe not that direct of a message. But it started POURING rain like crazy, so I got the point.

Which way "tightens" the timing belt tensioner pulley. Is it backwards, like righty-loosey, or regular?

Click to expand...

the trick here is knowing the year of your car. Since you mentioned not installing the lower pulley then that means that you likely have the two pulley setup. You were wise not to just try to remove the pulley then replace. The version of the timing kit your car has will require you to remove the center timing cover. The center timing cover is positioned in such a way that it will interfere with the removal and the install of the pulley for this setup. (This is not an issue for the other style of timing setup).

some people have removed the pulley without removing the center timing cover and have also installed the pulley with the removal of the cover. This would be ill-advised as it usually ends up with the stripping of the hole and cause for cross-threading the hole when installing the new pulley. The cross-threading is not always apparent but will be the reason the bolt breaks for the pulley. One person in the facebook groups did this and ended up redrilling the hole, tapping it for a larger size bolt then use a different pulley at this point. A lot of work which could have been avoided by the removal of the center timing cover.

the timing pulley bolts turn in the normal fashion of righty-tighty. Just be sure not to overtighten the bolt for the idler pulley, that is another cause for breakage of this bolt

Thank you for explaining this. I was hoping I could do it the "easy" way but it makes sense why I'll almost certainly cross-thread the idler if I try to swap it with the cover in place, since the bolt is captive to the pulley. If I could pull the bolt out, the pulley would definitely slide out from beneath the cover, so it looks very tempting to try. But I'll just have to remove the cover and everything.

Headed to go buy a whole complete timing set then. Which seems kind of foolish since the belt is only 10k old and isn't broken... but if I'm going to all the trouble of getting in there, then I may as well swap everything out. The real foolish thing was not swapping the idler when I fixed the broken belt 10k miles ago, as you pointed out three years ago. Plus I'll get a nice little instruction book with all the bolt locations and torques, which I sadly lost from the last time I did this. It's funny looking at the pictures and instructions I wrote three years ago and posted on this thread and thinking "dammit what does this guy mean, why didn't he take better pictures?!?"

On the bright side maybe I can fix the apparently leaky oil seal around the crank. There's a lot more oil caked on everything down there than there was three years ago. I'll buy a couple of those too, that way I'll have a couple shots to get one installed properly.

Dammit, now I've really gone and done it. I decided, in this mission to replace a suspected bad pulley bearing in the timing belt, that I'd go ahead and proactively replace the idlers on the serpentine belt as well. The rear (grooved) one is a bit harder to get to, but I was able to get a ratcheting wrench on it and back the screw out no problem. By the time it got loose enough to switch to spinning it by hand, I suddenly realized there wasn't enough room to slip the wrench off the bolt head! I put a prybar against the engine mount tab to try an leverage myself some space, but no way that wrench would slide out.



So far this had been an honest mistake... certainly not a pro move, but I'm just a shitty shade-tree mechanic who drivers an old Ford Escort and rants on the internet.

But here's where I really screwed up. With no easy option in sight, I decided to double down and keep backing that bolt out, hoping it would come free before I ran out of space.

This was a terrible decision.

The bolt head is now jammed against the wheel well and still hasn't even cleared the final thread. This is a one-way ratcheting wrench. I can't reverse it. Pretty sure I have to undo all the mounts and hose brackets and hope I can slide the engine far enough to the drivers side to remove this pulley without breaking anything.

Wish me luck.

Gamer92 said:

Once you remove the alternator the bracket has 5 fasteners that hold it in place. I found it easier to replace that idler by removing that bracket.

Click to expand...

Thanks! I see how this is the better option--didn't realize the pulley mount could be separated from the engine.

I wound up putting the engine and transmission assembly on jacks, removing the remaining mounts, then jacking the front of the engine high enough to finally wiggle that pulley out. It's successfully been replaced with a shitty aftermarket part! (And now I wish I had fresh engine/transmission mounts on hand to swap in, they wear out so fast on these cars, and I long for that smooth idle of fresh rubber in the mounts.)

The hope now is that I didn’t mess up any hose fittings or wiring connectors in the process of jacking the engine so far out of place. Before I find out though, I'm going do a bunch more work that might mess up the timing or cause a massive oil leak. Heres where I'm at:



I just replaced the front crank seal. I'm not sure the old one was my biggest leak, but it was definitely leaking.

The problem is that the seal is of questionable quality and fit. When I placed my online order to pick up the new seal at the local green-themed car parts store, the picture showed a premium orange silicone seal. As we all know, silicone tastes better, and orange makes 2% more of the horse powers.



Only tonight did I discover that the part they gave me is gray instead of orange, and is clearly a open-box returned part. It was filthy and covered in grit, complete with dead bugs stuck to the dried blobs of grease on the back... this thing sat out on someone's workbench for God knows how long. I would normally have bought two of them, as I typically mangle seals during installation, but they only had one in stock per the online checkout. So this is it.

I cleaned it as best I could, and picked out all the dead bugs with a q-tip.



My concern now is that I was able to press it in place by hand. No hammering on a jumbo socket with swearing like any other seal I've ever installed. It's not loose, but it slid in with finger pressure only...

I really hope it doesn't leak!

Chains cost way more and are a much bigger pita to change. They do stretch and when manufacturers nylon coat the gears to keep the noise down they are still a service item. When a small block chevy wipes out a timing gear or chain. You have to lower the oil pan pull the fan,water pump, harmonic balancer and timing cover. You also get to remove 2 heads,hope you didn't bust a lifter bore or cock a lifter in its bore,replace x number of push rods and have both heads rebuilt. Timing belts are way easier to change especially if you just do it as maintenance. How many of you have ever had a timing belt with less than 60k on it fail? If you do a belt as maintenance it's easy. Put dots on the front of your old belt and pulleys. Count the teeth on the belt between the dots,mark your new belt. On reassmbly all your paint dots will line up,if not you've done something wrong. Oh yea gears fail also and they are a pain to change,when I was at the dealership the Pontiac Fieros were gear driven,by the book,its a 10hr job to change the timing gears. I've never had a belt take near that kind of time.

you can test this car for the crankwalk by simply pulling on the crank pulley then pushing it back in. Do this a few times so you get a feel for it whether it is moving or not. You will be able to tell if this is the case. Many times the crankwalk is only the thrust bearing worn down and replacing it will fix this issue and get you many more mile out of the car.

if you did have the crankwalk as bad as you think you may have based on the sound then your car would likely not run. Another indicator of the crankwalk will be at the crank position sensor. Take this out to see if there are any signs of contact with the flywheel.

i have had to fix the crankwalk a few times. As mentioned, changing out the thrust bearing took care of it most of the time. One time required replacing the crank. That is a big job but can still be done in the car. With any luck you just have some chatter from the timing belt not being tensioned as it should be (easy fix) or one of the other pulleys chattering. fingers crossed

coonmanx said:

How many miles do you have on this car because these engines can go for a very long time. Unless of course you dropped a valve seat. Maybe a stethoscope could help you locate the exact source of that sound.

Click to expand...

117k miles... that's not that many right? For what it's worth I do change the oil from time to time.

4cylinder said:

you can test this car for the crankwalk by simply pulling on the crank pulley then pushing it back in. Do this a few times so you get a feel for it whether it is moving or not. You will be able to tell if this is the case. Many times the crankwalk is only the thrust bearing worn down and replacing it will fix this issue and get you many more mile out of the car.

if you did have the crankwalk as bad as you think you may have based on the sound then your car would likely not run. Another indicator of the crankwalk will be at the crank position sensor. Take this out to see if there are any signs of contact with the flywheel.

i have had to fix the crankwalk a few times. As mentioned, changing out the thrust bearing took care of it most of the time. One time required replacing the crank. That is a big job but can still be done in the car. With any luck you just have some chatter from the timing belt not being tensioned as it should be (easy fix) or one of the other pulleys chattering. fingers crossed

Click to expand...

OK... I can get 10 thousands of axial play at the pulley, with a little pry bar to move it:



Doesn't seem like that much to me. But maybe I'm not pushing hard enough.

In any case, yes, the car chewed through the crank sensor a couple years ago. Apparently that sensor is really important. Once I figured that out, I put spacer washers under each screw when I replaced it, to keep that from happening again.

Oh, and for like 5 years, I can hear the flywheel grind against the starter, just a little bit, when the torque converter unlocks in fourth. So.. I try not to make throttle inputs that make the torque converter unlock in fourth. And at one point I had to replace the starter, I guess they don't like it when the flywheel grinds against their little gear thing. The sound has not gotten any worse, but crank walk is definitely a problem for this engine.

However, the current problem does not sound like the flywheel is grinding against something. I thought it was a bad pulley, and was really hoping so, because I had an old pulley on the timing belt that I should have replaced but didn't. So I think we can all at least agree, the problem should definitely have been that old timing belt pulley.


But nope, I put in a brand new timing belt pulley, and tensioner and belt for extra good luck, and the noise is still there.

Kinda sounds like its not getting oil up top... i dunno :/

Joey_Twowagons said:

Bummer about the engine noise, perhaps you could just ask for a no obligation estimate at a repair shop?

I'm guessing a big part of the trouble changing Fiero timing gears is due to the engine being transverse and mounted in the back of the car.

Regarding timing chains, I've had three of them go over the years on high mileage engines. Two small Ford V8s and a Cadillac. The good thing about chains is that usually, and in all my cases, they fail by jumping a tooth. So you can limp home, the engine merely runs like crap.

Click to expand...

I took it to a mechanic shop down the street, just a block away, close enough to drive with no serpentine belt installed, to see if his professional ear could offer insights. He isn't super familiar with this engine, but said it'd be worth checking the variable valve thingy on the cam shaft, but probably I would need to take it an engine machine shop or something because it sounds like an engine problem.

Yeah... chains wear out. No argument there. But belts don't wear out, they break.

Okay when building a fresh motor I shoot for 5 thousandths end play but that's VW I've seen engines with way,way more than 10 run a Long time without issue. I'd keep looking for other problems. And timing gears and timing chains do fail,in 1 big catastrophe,bent valves,bent pushrods,damaged pistons. Belts very rarely fail if changed as maintaince items,belts are easier to get to,belts are easier to change, belts are cheaper and quieter. I worked at a very very busy,big shop 15 years and a lot of smaller shops and dealerships another 15 I've seen just as many problems with gears and chains.My father who is in his mid 70s and a car nut,millions of miles on cars in his life two timing failures,a Honda civic,belt broke no engine damage. A 1972 Chevrolet V8 gear went out cam quit spinning bent valves,bent push rods and lot bigger deal to change the chain than to change a belt. Chains and gears are not a magic fix all to prevent failures. Actually the best bet to reduce failure is maintenance.

I give up, I can't tell what's wrong with this stupid thing. Cams turn smooth, no hot bearings up there, oil flow is good. I can't get to the bottom end but I drained the oil and it looks clean, no metal. Actually it looked like a waste of $30, that was 5 quarts of synthetic and I changed it like 250 miles ago. Stethoscope to block, head, valve cover, oil pan... it all sounds... like an engine.

I guess I'll keep driving it till it breaks. Which based on sound... will be in about two blocks.




@4cylinder, If I want to try fixing the thrust bearing... do I have to remove the engine? Or can I get to it thru the oil pan, is there a way to drop the crank from below? I bet my crank is bolted to a transmission somehow. Can I just buy a set of bearings and pop them in, or is this like a "take it to a machine shop" situation? Sorry for dumb question.

listening to the video the car sounds normal. maybe not normal to you because likely only have one. Your tensioner is set properly and the belt is moving smooth and not erratic.

also, your car being automatic the the thrust bearing is probably in good condition as the automatic trans cars dont suffer this as often as the 5speed cars do. I do have a concern since you mentioned using washers for the cranks sensor and that the crank sensor was once damaged. Also, you mention the torque converter hitting. Maybe your problem is the flexplate broken and causing this noise? I just got done diagnosing this same issue with someone else and their 2003 zx2.

you can test for the flexplate broken by taking off the inspection cover and moving the flexplate. You should check it for side to side movement and front to back movement. Can also check to see if the crank moves before the flexplate does. When I showed the person with the 03 this he was surprised because once we took off the trans that is exactly what it was.

if this does happen to be a flexplate then be prepared to really have to search for the zx2 flexplate. It is hard to find and the auto parts stores will try to sell you the spi version. zx2 is specific so a contour or focus wont work either. This is a shitty job to do for what it is because of all which is involved. Hopefully it is as simple as this though because the fix is not too bad all things considered